1 00:00:22,630 --> 00:00:09,100 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,970 --> 00:00:25,490 hello and welcome to the skeptics are an 3 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:28,980 episode about 294 I think that's my 4 00:00:34,550 --> 00:00:32,190 lucky number for the eighth of jun 2014 5 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:34,560 Richard Saunders here with you from 6 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:37,410 Sydney Australia coming up on this 7 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:39,030 week's show we're going to kick off with 8 00:00:46,910 --> 00:00:43,170 a Rancic Evan not a QED this time but at 9 00:00:49,070 --> 00:00:46,920 skeptic camp in Manchester and Iran will 10 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:49,080 give those people and you of course an 11 00:00:56,780 --> 00:00:52,890 oversight I run down a look into a peep 12 00:00:58,810 --> 00:00:56,790 into the goings-on and the story some of 13 00:01:01,310 --> 00:00:58,820 the story behind the Australian skeptics 14 00:01:02,210 --> 00:01:01,320 after that it's a wig in science from 15 00:01:04,219 --> 00:01:02,220 our good friends at the Royal 16 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:04,229 Institution of Australia do a wonderful 17 00:01:10,910 --> 00:01:08,310 job r-ia us dot org dot a you and then I 18 00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:10,920 interview Theo Clark from Brisbane Theo 19 00:01:17,180 --> 00:01:15,180 Clark has written the second version of 20 00:01:22,249 --> 00:01:17,190 a book called humbug you know this is 21 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:22,259 all about logical fallacies and mistakes 22 00:01:26,210 --> 00:01:23,670 and arguments and things you know like 23 00:01:28,669 --> 00:01:26,220 the argument from antiquity and the 24 00:01:31,219 --> 00:01:28,679 argument from celebrity in the straw man 25 00:01:33,529 --> 00:01:31,229 argument and the false dichotomy all 26 00:01:36,350 --> 00:01:33,539 those things all those things are 27 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:36,360 explained in detail in Theo's book 28 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:38,940 humbug which is a guide to spotting 29 00:01:45,460 --> 00:01:41,910 fallacies and deceptive arguments you 30 00:01:50,419 --> 00:01:45,470 can get humbug online if you go to ww 31 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:50,429 skeptics field guide dot net download 32 00:01:54,169 --> 00:01:52,050 that book for only a couple of dollars i 33 00:01:57,949 --> 00:01:54,179 think and whack it on to your mobile 34 00:01:59,330 --> 00:01:57,959 device your your iPad or your google pad 35 00:02:02,870 --> 00:01:59,340 or whatever players you have these days 36 00:02:05,839 --> 00:02:02,880 and i must say i find it an invaluable 37 00:02:08,510 --> 00:02:05,849 resource will find out more about humbug 38 00:02:10,550 --> 00:02:08,520 coming up later on in the show and to 39 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:10,560 round off the show i'm off to skeptics 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:12,510 in the pub here in sydney where I just 41 00:02:20,870 --> 00:02:17,810 sort of well chapter people that's about 42 00:02:23,210 --> 00:02:20,880 sums it up I guess I just run around 43 00:02:24,949 --> 00:02:23,220 with my microphone and just chat to 44 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:24,959 people about why they've come to 45 00:02:30,260 --> 00:02:28,710 skeptics in the pub and how you too if 46 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:30,270 you're in the sydney area you can be 47 00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:32,010 involved in skeptics in the pub and even 48 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:33,200 give a talk and 49 00:02:37,420 --> 00:02:35,510 to round off the show and those people 50 00:02:40,930 --> 00:02:37,430 in Canberra my friends those Canberra 51 00:02:42,430 --> 00:02:40,940 skeptics they're never not busy on the 52 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:42,440 tour the June there's another tour 53 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:45,050 coming up stop blaming open-access 54 00:02:49,119 --> 00:02:46,660 what's wrong with scholarly 55 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:49,129 communication if you're interested in 56 00:02:52,630 --> 00:02:50,930 that sort of talk or you're in the 57 00:02:54,910 --> 00:02:52,640 canberra area and you want to find out 58 00:02:57,250 --> 00:02:54,920 more about the local skeptical seen 59 00:03:02,460 --> 00:02:57,260 under the presidency of Lauren Cochrane 60 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:02,470 run to Canberra skeptics org a you 61 00:03:06,610 --> 00:03:04,730 always something going on with the 62 00:03:07,870 --> 00:03:06,620 camera skeptics huh certainly take my 63 00:03:09,970 --> 00:03:07,880 hat off to them but of course they're 64 00:03:12,069 --> 00:03:09,980 not the only active skeptics around the 65 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:12,079 country there's also the Mahdi Alex 66 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:15,530 skeptics down just south of melbourne 67 00:03:23,259 --> 00:03:18,290 you can find them at meet up more tea m 68 00:03:25,750 --> 00:03:23,269 0 rd I skeptics check them out and don't 69 00:03:28,210 --> 00:03:25,760 forget coming up next month is bris 70 00:03:29,740 --> 00:03:28,220 skeptic camp skeptic camp in Brisbane 71 00:03:31,350 --> 00:03:29,750 actually there's a little bit more 72 00:03:34,390 --> 00:03:31,360 information about that coming up 73 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:34,400 somewhere in today's show now for you 74 00:03:39,759 --> 00:03:36,410 people who subscribe to the skeptic 75 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:39,769 magazine ah it's in the post I've been 76 00:03:43,750 --> 00:03:41,750 told it's in the post as we speak but of 77 00:03:46,690 --> 00:03:43,760 course if you subscribe to the digital 78 00:03:49,629 --> 00:03:46,700 copy I'm sure you're sitting back and 79 00:03:51,340 --> 00:03:49,639 enjoying your magazine well I hope 80 00:03:52,509 --> 00:03:51,350 you're taking out time to listen to the 81 00:03:53,890 --> 00:03:52,519 skeptics own and then get straight back 82 00:03:57,309 --> 00:03:53,900 to the magazine where you can read a 83 00:03:59,710 --> 00:03:57,319 report by Joe alabaster report by me 84 00:04:02,410 --> 00:03:59,720 about the paranormal convention and all 85 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:02,420 sorts of other goodies if you want to 86 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:04,160 subscribe to the skeptic magazine and I 87 00:04:10,690 --> 00:04:06,170 sincerely hope you do just go to 88 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:10,700 skeptics com au / publications to find 89 00:04:15,309 --> 00:04:13,850 out more there's even an article oh yes 90 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:15,319 there's even an article by Heidi 91 00:04:20,849 --> 00:04:17,410 Robinson from the Northern Rivers 92 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:20,859 vaccination supporters Northern Rivers 93 00:04:29,290 --> 00:04:25,610 vaccination supporters dot org hello 94 00:04:33,339 --> 00:04:29,300 Heidi hello Charlie hello Hugo but for 95 00:04:36,250 --> 00:04:33,349 now it's time for me to oh hello hello 96 00:04:39,310 --> 00:04:36,260 Fred are you going to mouth for the 97 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:39,320 people this week knowings going to run 98 00:04:44,620 --> 00:04:42,710 away instead and sit down hmm typical 99 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:44,630 cut but for now I'm going to run 100 00:04:48,070 --> 00:04:45,770 downstairs give 101 00:04:49,930 --> 00:04:48,080 to cut a pat on the head on the way open 102 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:49,940 up the fridge get out that waffle mix 103 00:04:54,820 --> 00:04:52,849 make myself up a batch of waffles with 104 00:05:14,190 --> 00:04:54,830 maple syrup and while I'm doing that I 105 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:16,800 little take this with a grain of salt 106 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:30,530 he's around first want to build on 107 00:05:36,220 --> 00:05:32,810 something that Marsh said about half day 108 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:36,230 we strated had something similar a few 109 00:05:39,850 --> 00:05:38,330 years ago we didn't to the marsh said 110 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:39,860 you want to do it in London because it's 111 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:41,870 easy to get to in the population density 112 00:05:47,170 --> 00:05:44,390 we chose a spot that is about halfway 113 00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:47,180 between Sydney and Melbourne and equally 114 00:05:51,940 --> 00:05:48,980 difficult to get to for both of those 115 00:05:54,310 --> 00:05:51,950 days just to make sure that nobody is 116 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:54,320 offended so Australia's skeptics 117 00:05:59,770 --> 00:05:56,930 festival a bit of a primer on Australian 118 00:06:01,690 --> 00:05:59,780 skeptics the story skeptics is a not a 119 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:01,700 single organization there is an 120 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:03,080 organization called Australian skeptics 121 00:06:07,270 --> 00:06:04,730 Inc that is the group in New South Wales 122 00:06:10,750 --> 00:06:07,280 the group that I belong to and was the 123 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:10,760 former president of we are the de facto 124 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:14,150 national national body but we are not 125 00:06:17,650 --> 00:06:15,740 the only ones and we do work in 126 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:17,660 collaboration with groups across the 127 00:06:21,910 --> 00:06:19,250 various states and territories in 128 00:06:24,820 --> 00:06:21,920 Australia when I speak about Australian 129 00:06:25,930 --> 00:06:24,830 skeptics I'm not speaking just about the 130 00:06:27,430 --> 00:06:25,940 organization use of worlds caught 131 00:06:29,290 --> 00:06:27,440 Australian skeptics although it's 132 00:06:30,610 --> 00:06:29,300 primarily about that but I'm talking 133 00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:30,620 about them speaking about all those 134 00:06:35,140 --> 00:06:33,260 different groups and also just skeptics 135 00:06:38,980 --> 00:06:35,150 in Australia who collaborate with us and 136 00:06:41,140 --> 00:06:38,990 work closely with us so we try to be we 137 00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:41,150 try to do as much as possible the 138 00:06:46,390 --> 00:06:44,030 opposite of armchair skepticism p try to 139 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:46,400 be active and actually do things that 140 00:06:49,180 --> 00:06:48,290 achieve results and I want to talk to 141 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:49,190 you about a few things that we've done 142 00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:50,870 in recent years just to give you a bit 143 00:06:54,460 --> 00:06:52,310 of a flavor of the kind of things that 144 00:06:55,559 --> 00:06:54,470 we do so the first thing I want to 145 00:06:57,269 --> 00:06:55,569 mention is 146 00:06:58,859 --> 00:06:57,279 the story of ken harvey dr. ken harvey 147 00:07:02,159 --> 00:06:58,869 some of you will have heard of him he's 148 00:07:05,159 --> 00:07:02,169 a professor now retired professor of 149 00:07:07,619 --> 00:07:05,169 Public Health who is a serial 150 00:07:09,510 --> 00:07:07,629 complainant to the TGA which is the 151 00:07:11,669 --> 00:07:09,520 equivalent of the FDR not sure what it 152 00:07:13,679 --> 00:07:11,679 is in the UK but basically it's the 153 00:07:18,299 --> 00:07:13,689 organization the government organization 154 00:07:19,859 --> 00:07:18,309 that controls medicine medicine and he 155 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:19,869 complains to them about all kinds of 156 00:07:24,299 --> 00:07:22,330 quacks and quackery and he complained 157 00:07:26,689 --> 00:07:24,309 about this company called sense Aslam 158 00:07:29,459 --> 00:07:26,699 who was selling a a slimming solution 159 00:07:32,070 --> 00:07:29,469 that some spray that is supposed to work 160 00:07:35,159 --> 00:07:32,080 in your sleep now he complained about 161 00:07:37,969 --> 00:07:35,169 them based on the available laws they 162 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:37,979 soon him they sued him for deformation 163 00:07:42,959 --> 00:07:41,050 the wall of the hope the whole process 164 00:07:45,029 --> 00:07:42,969 of the TG is extremely slow it's a very 165 00:07:47,429 --> 00:07:45,039 very weak organization and sorry 166 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:47,439 unfortunately and during the process of 167 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:50,800 the TJ working on the complaint sense 168 00:07:57,230 --> 00:07:53,889 Aslam took a sledgehammer to can help me 169 00:07:59,909 --> 00:07:57,240 try to try to silence him by suing him 170 00:08:02,459 --> 00:07:59,919 when we heard about this what we did was 171 00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:02,469 we went on a huge public campaign to 172 00:08:08,609 --> 00:08:05,680 raise funds for his defense and the idea 173 00:08:10,529 --> 00:08:08,619 was that ken harvey must not be a single 174 00:08:11,699 --> 00:08:10,539 cent out of pocket for that kind of 175 00:08:13,379 --> 00:08:11,709 thing because that would send the wrong 176 00:08:16,399 --> 00:08:13,389 message to cracks out there that they 177 00:08:19,290 --> 00:08:16,409 can silence people I can who's it he 178 00:08:21,299 --> 00:08:19,300 there's a guy coming who said that Ken 179 00:08:24,779 --> 00:08:21,309 hobby is our regulatory system he's 180 00:08:26,909 --> 00:08:24,789 responsible for the fact that that there 181 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:26,919 is some level of control criteria in 182 00:08:31,559 --> 00:08:29,680 Australia so we made a point of making 183 00:08:33,420 --> 00:08:31,569 sure that his expenses were covered and 184 00:08:35,670 --> 00:08:33,430 we've actually had the pledges in about 185 00:08:38,939 --> 00:08:35,680 three weeks we had pledges of about 186 00:08:42,449 --> 00:08:38,949 twenty-five thousand dollars and of 187 00:08:44,189 --> 00:08:42,459 those $25,000 twenty four thousand 188 00:08:46,259 --> 00:08:44,199 dollars six hundred were actually paid 189 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:46,269 so these were just pledges but basically 190 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:48,850 anybody everybody who pledged actually 191 00:08:53,550 --> 00:08:49,930 paid in the end which was a great 192 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:53,560 success in the end EXT the Ken 3 costs 193 00:08:57,870 --> 00:08:55,060 for something like forty two thousand 194 00:09:00,120 --> 00:08:57,880 dollars and I think we raised from the 195 00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:00,130 public something like 37 or 38 thousand 196 00:09:04,530 --> 00:09:01,750 dollars and we have straightens kept 197 00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:04,540 hey paid the rest and we just made sure 198 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:06,070 that he was not a of course we 199 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:08,110 made a big big deal out of it to send 200 00:09:11,250 --> 00:09:09,760 this very strong message that we are not 201 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:11,260 going to make when we're not going to 202 00:09:15,630 --> 00:09:13,480 allow people like census lim who were 203 00:09:17,550 --> 00:09:15,640 backed by the way by very very notorious 204 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:17,560 conmen Peter Foster which someone who 205 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:18,490 will have heard of because he was 206 00:09:23,580 --> 00:09:21,010 related to it was had some hanky-panky 207 00:09:24,810 --> 00:09:23,590 with the Cherie Blair and the housing 208 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:24,820 and something I'm not sure exactly of 209 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:26,530 the details but he's a known comment he 210 00:09:31,230 --> 00:09:29,110 was behind this thing and the great 211 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:31,240 thing was that we had conventionally 212 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:35,110 2011 with we go got ken harvey somebody 213 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:37,570 from consumer watchdog the government 214 00:09:41,070 --> 00:09:39,400 consumer watchdog somebody from the TGA 215 00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:41,080 senior guy from the TG at the head of 216 00:09:45,990 --> 00:09:44,020 the TGA all on stage together in a panel 217 00:09:47,730 --> 00:09:46,000 and the day before that conference 218 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:47,740 before that Colonel Peter Foster was 219 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:49,180 arrested especially for our conference 220 00:09:58,650 --> 00:09:56,610 be all the things that we met on avian 221 00:10:01,950 --> 00:09:58,660 avian is the Australian vaccination 222 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:01,960 network we have been working in color 223 00:10:05,310 --> 00:10:03,370 there's been a collaboration of 224 00:10:10,340 --> 00:10:05,320 Australian skeptics and lots of other 225 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:10,350 groups not most notably group called 226 00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:13,690 stop the avian s avian stop the 227 00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:15,190 Australian vaccination work is that just 228 00:10:18,660 --> 00:10:16,780 a group of concerned citizens many of 229 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:18,670 them are also strengthened members of 230 00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:20,350 Australian skeptics who decided that 231 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:22,089 this organization needs to be stopped 232 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:23,710 and he just so happened that these 233 00:10:30,750 --> 00:10:26,800 discrim us started working in parallel 234 00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:30,760 pretty much at the same time about four 235 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:33,430 years ago now to stop to stop that 236 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:36,250 organization so we published in some 237 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:38,710 major newspapers in Australia a letter 238 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:42,010 about this avian and urging parents to 239 00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:43,450 take the implement the information that 240 00:10:47,070 --> 00:10:45,220 they need about vaccinations not from 241 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:47,080 the avian but from reputable sources 242 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:49,540 like the government like their GPS to 243 00:10:54,030 --> 00:10:50,650 make sure that they actually make the 244 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:54,040 right decision on the same day that our 245 00:11:02,160 --> 00:10:57,610 ad went to the papers a wonderful man by 246 00:11:05,610 --> 00:11:02,170 the name of Ken MacLeod sent a very 247 00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:05,620 well-crafted complaint to the htpc which 248 00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:07,300 the healthcare Complaints Commission in 249 00:11:11,510 --> 00:11:08,640 New South Wales which 250 00:11:13,130 --> 00:11:11,520 is the organization that investigates 251 00:11:15,380 --> 00:11:13,140 complaints about health services 252 00:11:16,730 --> 00:11:15,390 providers he said it very well tough to 253 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:16,740 complain to them that was investigated 254 00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:18,450 for a long time it's a long story i want 255 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:20,220 going to the whole story but that was 256 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:22,970 basically that day was the beginning of 257 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:26,130 three and a half four years of very very 258 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:28,350 bad time for the avn one of the major 259 00:11:33,740 --> 00:11:30,510 thing that we've achieved in my opinion 260 00:11:34,970 --> 00:11:33,750 is not a lot of the not just the fact 261 00:11:36,350 --> 00:11:34,980 that they've been for the past three and 262 00:11:43,940 --> 00:11:36,360 a half four years they've been very very 263 00:11:47,270 --> 00:11:43,950 busy dealing with complaints on to do 264 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:47,280 which is on the public health they were 265 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:50,430 the major thing we did was we made a 266 00:11:55,270 --> 00:11:53,130 change the way that media perceives the 267 00:11:58,220 --> 00:11:55,280 kind of the anti-vaccination network 268 00:12:00,680 --> 00:11:58,230 instead of being the go-to guys to any 269 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:00,690 information about about vaccines in the 270 00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:02,850 ones that work that that they go to 271 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:05,040 provide that false balancing you know 272 00:12:09,710 --> 00:12:06,540 around vaccines you know you invite a 273 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:09,720 pediatrician and some mum from Bangalore 274 00:12:17,510 --> 00:12:12,690 New South Wales who has as she describes 275 00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:17,520 it has a brain so do cockroaches small 276 00:12:24,290 --> 00:12:21,180 but so instead of talking speaking to 277 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:24,300 them as vaccine experts there now 278 00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,270 referred to universally in the press in 279 00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:30,000 anywhere in the media as auntie vaccine 280 00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:31,980 the anti-vaccine lobbying and that is a 281 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:33,720 huge achievement for us because that 282 00:12:37,940 --> 00:12:36,330 means that when parents go to their 283 00:12:39,770 --> 00:12:37,950 website when parents hear about them 284 00:12:41,930 --> 00:12:39,780 they already know that these are not 285 00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:41,940 people that you can get credible 286 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:43,620 information from of course if somebody 287 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:45,690 is inclined that way and somebody wants 288 00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:47,520 anti-vaccine information for so they'll 289 00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:49,920 find it but at least they know what 290 00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:51,240 they're getting with a name like 291 00:12:54,410 --> 00:12:53,220 Australian vaccination work it sounds 292 00:12:56,420 --> 00:12:54,420 like the infirm it the information you 293 00:12:59,420 --> 00:12:56,430 get from them is credible and only the 294 00:13:01,040 --> 00:12:59,430 last couple of weeks are the they were 295 00:13:02,860 --> 00:13:01,050 ordered by the government by the use of 296 00:13:05,170 --> 00:13:02,870 world government to change their name 297 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:05,180 unfortunately they change their name to 298 00:13:10,820 --> 00:13:08,090 Australian vaccination skeptics Network 299 00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:10,830 which is not a really not a fantastic 300 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:13,680 thing for us obviously because it could 301 00:13:17,330 --> 00:13:15,450 create a semblance of a Lincoln we have 302 00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:17,340 been fighting them for a long time but 303 00:13:20,210 --> 00:13:19,020 we've thought about 304 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:20,220 we've talked to people outside of the 305 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:22,050 community to try to understand what the 306 00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:23,640 perception is of that and most people 307 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:26,550 say yeah that appears like they're 308 00:13:29,870 --> 00:13:28,530 against I've seen and that's what we 309 00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:29,880 really want I mean we'll worry about the 310 00:13:33,770 --> 00:13:32,160 name and the word skepticism later but 311 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:33,780 right now we're sending a very good 312 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,910 message out there that they need to 313 00:13:39,530 --> 00:13:37,560 change the name in parallel to that 314 00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:39,540 they're also being investigated by the 315 00:13:42,830 --> 00:13:40,860 government on several infringement 316 00:13:44,180 --> 00:13:42,840 financial arrangements that the 317 00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:44,190 information that they spread around 318 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:46,470 vaccines Steve illegal they have to 319 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:49,170 change that there was a big report about 320 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:51,030 information that appears on their 321 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:52,890 website and basically on every single 322 00:14:00,110 --> 00:13:56,250 item attended work with remove and never 323 00:14:01,610 --> 00:14:00,120 put back this information so there's not 324 00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:01,620 going to be much left on the website 325 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:04,230 after they lament this and the 326 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:06,330 organization the H people see the 327 00:14:09,830 --> 00:14:07,890 organization that put out that report 328 00:14:12,740 --> 00:14:09,840 was so confident that they're not going 329 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:12,750 to comply that they've already phrased 330 00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:14,490 in the report that phrase the public 331 00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:16,860 warning that they're going to put up 332 00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,590 after this doesn't work he'll funds so 333 00:14:28,940 --> 00:14:24,480 there is a problem in Australia in 334 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:28,950 Australia this Medicare which is its 335 00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:32,310 public it's a public health service so 336 00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:34,800 we all pay pay for it through our taxes 337 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:37,200 in the go to the you can go to the gb 338 00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,300 for free or almost 43 a lot of 339 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:42,240 medication subsidized in addition a lot 340 00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:45,930 of people have public health insurance 341 00:14:49,550 --> 00:14:47,100 and that public health insurance is 342 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:49,560 partially paid for by the public through 343 00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:51,570 a rebate that the health funds are 344 00:14:55,699 --> 00:14:53,180 received from the government now the 345 00:15:02,340 --> 00:14:55,709 woods Mike what's my time like 346 00:15:04,019 --> 00:15:02,350 ok so the those health funds get some 347 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:04,029 money from the government unfortunately 348 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:06,490 those health funds also provide we are 349 00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:09,510 reinsurance that the covers things like 350 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:11,980 chiropractic and the APPA the--and all 351 00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:15,010 in all kinds of massages there are being 352 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:18,160 some of them are actually okay but some 353 00:15:22,319 --> 00:15:20,529 of them are really not and and that is 354 00:15:25,259 --> 00:15:22,329 something that we've for a long time be 355 00:15:26,579 --> 00:15:25,269 trying to get the health funds to not do 356 00:15:28,079 --> 00:15:26,589 to provide the leases you know make it 357 00:15:30,269 --> 00:15:28,089 optional don't don't give it to any 358 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:30,279 don't give it to me I don't want to use 359 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:32,050 them don't put chiropractic on my 360 00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:33,850 insurance i'm not going to use it and 361 00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:36,310 basically they said look it's going to 362 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:38,279 cost you more to have your own custom 363 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:42,130 policy so so it hasn't be working very 364 00:15:47,310 --> 00:15:44,529 well fortunately because of the because 365 00:15:49,079 --> 00:15:47,320 of the fact that the public pays for 366 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:49,089 these services the government got onto 367 00:15:54,750 --> 00:15:52,050 it and we've been able to get the 368 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:54,760 organization called NHMRC National 369 00:15:58,620 --> 00:15:56,410 Health and Medical Research Council to 370 00:16:00,900 --> 00:15:58,630 investigate and together they've come up 371 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:00,910 with a list of services that the health 372 00:16:06,809 --> 00:16:05,290 funds cannot provide funds to and it's 373 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:06,819 this whole thing is not yet finished 374 00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:09,370 there is an internist determination but 375 00:16:12,780 --> 00:16:11,199 it's not yet complete but me you can be 376 00:16:14,939 --> 00:16:12,790 sure that chiropractic is not going to 377 00:16:16,379 --> 00:16:14,949 be there that homeopathy is definitely 378 00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:16,389 not going to be there this is going to 379 00:16:20,189 --> 00:16:17,440 be a lot of other things that are not 380 00:16:23,009 --> 00:16:20,199 going to be there another thing we've 381 00:16:24,750 --> 00:16:23,019 since I've mentioned in H&M RC I want to 382 00:16:28,110 --> 00:16:24,760 mention that the they've investigated 383 00:16:29,879 --> 00:16:28,120 homeopathy and only couple days ago came 384 00:16:32,329 --> 00:16:29,889 up with a scathing paper about 385 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:37,239 absolutely basically says doesn't work 386 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:41,490 just like a website that how does it 387 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:44,910 work how does nobody will get one last 388 00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:46,170 thing I want to mention is that we've 389 00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:49,670 done some research into universities 390 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:52,350 teaching all cut all kinds of all modes 391 00:16:57,019 --> 00:16:55,410 of quackery and unfortunately they were 392 00:16:58,790 --> 00:16:57,029 quite early there was quite a lot of 393 00:17:00,590 --> 00:16:58,800 that they were mean some universities 394 00:17:01,939 --> 00:17:00,600 were worse than others but it was it was 395 00:17:04,149 --> 00:17:01,949 quite common for universities to offer 396 00:17:06,199 --> 00:17:04,159 all kinds of courses in factory now 397 00:17:09,139 --> 00:17:06,209 there's this constant argument about 398 00:17:10,490 --> 00:17:09,149 whether quite o issue or alternative 399 00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:10,500 medicine should be researched and 400 00:17:14,659 --> 00:17:12,270 absolutely it should be research but you 401 00:17:16,130 --> 00:17:14,669 should not be taught before it's recent 402 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:16,140 and I think the problem is that in a lot 403 00:17:19,850 --> 00:17:17,970 of those universities it's not the 404 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:19,860 research problem that a research program 405 00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:22,350 that's the problem it's they it's the 406 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:24,059 teaching of things that do not have 407 00:17:29,389 --> 00:17:26,970 foundation in science or foundational 408 00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:29,399 evidence that is the problem for example 409 00:17:35,539 --> 00:17:32,700 RMIT University teach they have a very 410 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:35,549 large Faculty of chiropractic and as 411 00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:37,500 part of that faculty they have a 412 00:17:44,510 --> 00:17:40,559 children's car back to clinic so their 413 00:17:46,370 --> 00:17:44,520 students treat treat kids with 414 00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:46,380 chiropractic which is very disturbing 415 00:17:50,299 --> 00:17:48,630 now we've done that message and that 416 00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:50,309 research was published in two parts in 417 00:17:56,750 --> 00:17:53,520 our magazine the skeptic and which is 418 00:17:59,389 --> 00:17:56,760 the second-oldest skeptical stick a 419 00:18:02,779 --> 00:17:59,399 skeptical magazine in world be published 420 00:18:06,169 --> 00:18:02,789 since 1980 and as a result of that 421 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:06,179 several prominent health professionals 422 00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:08,370 have established an organization called 423 00:18:13,639 --> 00:18:10,500 Friends of science and medicine they 424 00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,649 call it fsm and they're too old to 425 00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:15,120 realize that that's going to be a 426 00:18:18,289 --> 00:18:16,950 problem for them but anyway they've 427 00:18:20,269 --> 00:18:18,299 established this organization and now 428 00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:20,279 this organization has something like 429 00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:22,260 1,200 members and those members are 430 00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:25,110 largely health professional scientists 431 00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:28,950 public health advocates and all of those 432 00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:31,830 people are now fairly large and 433 00:18:35,419 --> 00:18:33,270 influential group of people who will 434 00:18:37,789 --> 00:18:35,429 press the government push the government 435 00:18:39,769 --> 00:18:37,799 to make the right decisions the right 436 00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:39,779 letters first of all they pee a method 437 00:18:43,290 --> 00:18:40,750 all of them have 438 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:43,300 all kinds of titles from be from the 439 00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:47,050 governor-general not quite nice with but 440 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:49,120 you know somewhere else on the lower run 441 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:50,170 you know we're still and we are a 442 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:51,310 monarchy in Australia you do know that 443 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:54,010 by so so we had they they're quite 444 00:18:57,060 --> 00:18:55,570 prominent people all of them and they 445 00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:57,070 have access to the press they have 446 00:19:01,140 --> 00:18:58,720 access to the government and actually 447 00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:01,150 make quite a lot of difference and we we 448 00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:04,990 do see how they're able to through their 449 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:06,910 contacts through their context of the 450 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:08,770 universities to actually make make a 451 00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:11,470 difference it is now at a stage where 452 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:14,620 most universities are really hesitant 453 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:16,810 when they when he comes to teaching all 454 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:19,660 kind all kinds of modes of alternative 455 00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:21,610 medicine to the point where the the 456 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:22,990 largest chiropractic program in 457 00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:24,130 Australia in terms of the number of 458 00:19:27,390 --> 00:19:25,360 students going through at Macquarie 459 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:27,400 University in Sydney they've decided to 460 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:30,310 dispose of it actually they've sold the 461 00:19:34,290 --> 00:19:31,810 problems with some other university a 462 00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:34,300 lower-end university that they've all 463 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:36,640 see a nervous he had what was it that 464 00:19:41,790 --> 00:19:39,010 they said that the reason was the 465 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:41,800 research outputs you know they have to 466 00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:43,450 focus on research output of other 467 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:45,460 programs the reality is that if it's 468 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:46,810 research output that problem should have 469 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:48,370 been scrapped and scrapped a long time 470 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:50,440 ago because the research output of the 471 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:52,570 chiropractic program is basically nil 472 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:54,610 over the 30 years they've had it at 473 00:19:59,250 --> 00:19:58,210 Macquarie University the one last thing 474 00:20:00,810 --> 00:19:59,260 I want to mention about Australian 475 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:00,820 skeptics is not about something that we 476 00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:03,430 do but I bought our approach I mentioned 477 00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:05,200 earlier it's not our church skepticism 478 00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:07,750 it's about it's about activism it's 479 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:09,100 about getting things done it's about 480 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:10,410 where we can be most effective 481 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:13,150 definitely try to avoid political games 482 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:15,370 within the organization in between us 483 00:20:30,090 --> 00:20:17,410 and other groups and it's been working 484 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:42,359 hold tight so I don't worry 485 00:20:53,289 --> 00:20:49,059 how fast are you acting for people with 486 00:20:56,019 --> 00:20:53,299 this case definitely definitely see more 487 00:20:58,509 --> 00:20:56,029 people at our events so it's it is 488 00:21:00,699 --> 00:20:58,519 growing and more importantly we're 489 00:21:04,329 --> 00:21:00,709 seeing a lot more of the younger 490 00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:04,339 generation at all events we definitely 491 00:21:08,769 --> 00:21:05,809 not it's not reflecting membership 492 00:21:11,259 --> 00:21:08,779 though our membership is basically a 493 00:21:13,449 --> 00:21:11,269 subscription to the magazine and that's 494 00:21:14,979 --> 00:21:13,459 actually not growing in any significant 495 00:21:17,319 --> 00:21:14,989 ways so but we're definitely seeing a 496 00:21:20,229 --> 00:21:17,329 lot a lot of you skeptics in the pub we 497 00:21:24,759 --> 00:21:20,239 regularly regularly get some say in 498 00:21:26,829 --> 00:21:24,769 Sydney 50 to 80 people that's the 499 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:26,839 regular number and that's just in Sydney 500 00:21:32,589 --> 00:21:30,129 this in this equivalent in other cities 501 00:21:34,629 --> 00:21:32,599 about how the people are not subscribers 502 00:21:37,509 --> 00:21:34,639 and not members of the organization it 503 00:21:39,309 --> 00:21:37,519 look we would prefer that there were but 504 00:21:45,099 --> 00:21:39,319 that's not you know the more things that 505 00:21:47,409 --> 00:21:45,109 they're active in a new city I am very 506 00:21:49,679 --> 00:21:47,419 very aware but they also ain't get one 507 00:21:55,719 --> 00:21:49,689 of the best organized and the best 508 00:21:58,130 --> 00:21:55,729 actress in 17 as a whole he said wheres 509 00:22:01,010 --> 00:21:58,140 effective Denver sense 510 00:22:05,050 --> 00:22:01,020 I'm watching from America or anything to 511 00:22:08,810 --> 00:22:05,060 do i just want to point out fabulous 512 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:08,820 organization please just fifth time them 513 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:12,210 and learn from them and by first vice 514 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:16,110 versa it is a generation canvas amazing 515 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:19,170 people the settings of podcast is a 516 00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:22,050 wonderful resource by Richard Saunders 517 00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:25,080 and I took me just intuitively there are 518 00:22:39,470 --> 00:22:28,260 other my path that make people lose me 519 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:39,480 to to get that bill by mile sorry oh no 520 00:22:43,910 --> 00:22:40,830 I couldn't really i must admit that 521 00:22:49,820 --> 00:22:43,920 because of my i actually have a thing 522 00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:49,830 called job work is the fall of the word 523 00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:51,900 by the way i don't usually like comments 524 00:22:57,500 --> 00:22:56,130 in this say but I like that one so no I 525 00:23:00,170 --> 00:22:57,510 think this capstone will never lead 526 00:23:02,540 --> 00:23:00,180 almost the official official podcast of 527 00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:02,550 of the step of Australian skeptics and 528 00:23:06,410 --> 00:23:04,500 definitely will know about everything 529 00:23:09,380 --> 00:23:06,420 that we do if you listen to the skeptics 530 00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:09,390 skeptics on podcast and I will be 531 00:23:14,750 --> 00:23:12,240 speaking to many of you on on on record 532 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:14,760 doing this we can to you know for the 533 00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:18,570 stepping on for us and you can you can 534 00:23:22,430 --> 00:23:20,550 subscribe to a digital but sending in 535 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:22,440 sending a print version is actually 536 00:23:26,770 --> 00:23:24,090 quite expensive but it's possible to get 537 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:26,780 a digital subscription to our magazine 538 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:29,490 where you will also learn a lot a lot 539 00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:30,930 about what we do and we have a website 540 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:32,460 that's quite active and we always have 541 00:24:01,150 --> 00:23:33,650 used their stories 542 00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:01,160 oh hello dear skeptical ninjas my name 543 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:04,160 is Jake Peralta and my name is russ bolt 544 00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:06,530 and we are here to talk to you about 545 00:24:12,490 --> 00:24:10,070 breeze skeptic amp which is coming up in 546 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:12,500 July so who is speaking out Bruce give 547 00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:14,570 de Kamp will take you and I will be 548 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:17,000 there as hosts as hosts and also 549 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:19,490 recording the podcast a podcast right 550 00:24:24,370 --> 00:24:21,770 and we've got John Cook from skeptical 551 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:24,380 science com well we've got Theo Clark 552 00:24:28,690 --> 00:24:26,810 who does hunting humbug podcast and also 553 00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:28,700 the skeptics field guide that is amazing 554 00:24:32,590 --> 00:24:30,920 and Loretta marron from friends of 555 00:24:34,870 --> 00:24:32,600 science and medicine that is fantastic 556 00:24:37,210 --> 00:24:34,880 and if all of that sounded too amazing 557 00:24:39,910 --> 00:24:37,220 we have a whole host of local skeptics 558 00:24:41,470 --> 00:24:39,920 in the brisbane area so if i call neo do 559 00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:41,480 i also get a free set of steak knives 560 00:24:46,030 --> 00:24:43,280 well i would be quite skeptical of that 561 00:24:48,190 --> 00:24:46,040 claim jack so how can I find out more 562 00:24:50,530 --> 00:24:48,200 about brisket again you can go to 563 00:24:53,230 --> 00:24:50,540 brisket to camp org that was an 564 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:53,240 advantageous Lee made web domain name I 565 00:24:59,860 --> 00:24:55,970 dare say yes and when is red skeptic in 566 00:25:01,780 --> 00:24:59,870 July 19th this year so July 19th this 567 00:25:03,790 --> 00:25:01,790 year and it's free it's a completely 568 00:25:05,650 --> 00:25:03,800 free completely free yeah with a free 569 00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:05,660 set of steak knives as well I would 570 00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:08,720 continue to be skeptical so go to brisk 571 00:25:23,879 --> 00:25:21,839 welcome to a week in science from arias 572 00:25:27,959 --> 00:25:23,889 bringing you the science you need to 573 00:25:30,539 --> 00:25:27,969 know June the sixth 1944 was d-day the 574 00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:30,549 Allied invasion of Europe and they had a 575 00:25:38,459 --> 00:25:32,200 little bit of Science and Technology on 576 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:38,469 their side a whole range of modified 577 00:25:43,169 --> 00:25:40,450 tanks were developed for specific jobs 578 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:43,179 during d-day and the later invasion of 579 00:25:48,570 --> 00:25:46,210 Europe known as Hobart's funnies they 580 00:25:50,579 --> 00:25:48,580 included the crocodile a tank with a 581 00:25:54,629 --> 00:25:50,589 flame thrower instead of a machine gun 582 00:25:57,629 --> 00:25:54,639 AV re or armored vehicle Royal Engineers 583 00:26:00,690 --> 00:25:57,639 had a heavy mortar on board capable of 584 00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:00,700 firing an 18 kilo projectile filled with 585 00:26:07,229 --> 00:26:04,809 high explosives around 137 meters there 586 00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:07,239 were tanks that laid a canvas road to 587 00:26:11,879 --> 00:26:09,190 prevent following vehicles from getting 588 00:26:14,999 --> 00:26:11,889 bogged others that carried bundles of 589 00:26:17,159 --> 00:26:15,009 poles to instantly fill in ditches tanks 590 00:26:19,769 --> 00:26:17,169 that carried a 9 meter bridge in front 591 00:26:22,379 --> 00:26:19,779 of them and even a drive over tank with 592 00:26:24,539 --> 00:26:22,389 extendable ramps fore-and-aft that could 593 00:26:28,529 --> 00:26:24,549 be driven into a hole to provide a road 594 00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:28,539 for other traffic the science of 595 00:26:33,299 --> 00:26:30,700 deception was crucial to the success of 596 00:26:35,459 --> 00:26:33,309 the d-day landings three separate 597 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:35,469 operations were mounted that created 598 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:37,710 false impressions of invading amardas 599 00:26:43,019 --> 00:26:40,570 squadrons of bombers flying to split 600 00:26:45,269 --> 00:26:43,029 second schedules drop strips of 601 00:26:47,639 --> 00:26:45,279 aluminium foil in patterns that 602 00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:47,649 exploited a weakness in the German radar 603 00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:50,049 network the foil would show up on the 604 00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:53,169 enemy screens as huge advancing fleets 605 00:26:58,169 --> 00:26:56,049 of ships that didn't exist these 606 00:27:00,389 --> 00:26:58,179 deceptions were backed up by a small 607 00:27:02,849 --> 00:27:00,399 flotilla of boats carrying radio sets 608 00:27:05,579 --> 00:27:02,859 that created the volume of radio traffic 609 00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:05,589 expected from an invading fleet at least 610 00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:08,169 one of these three operations appears to 611 00:27:12,329 --> 00:27:10,059 have fooled the Germans into preparing 612 00:27:15,749 --> 00:27:12,339 for an attack that never happened and 613 00:27:17,889 --> 00:27:15,759 now for fast facts about d-day science 614 00:27:20,869 --> 00:27:17,899 and technology 615 00:27:23,299 --> 00:27:20,879 large gliders known as hamill cars 616 00:27:26,209 --> 00:27:23,309 carried heavy payloads including small 617 00:27:28,609 --> 00:27:26,219 tanks they had a wingspan of 33 and a 618 00:27:31,069 --> 00:27:28,619 half meters and weighed almost six and a 619 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:31,079 half Tom's distinctive black and white 620 00:27:35,239 --> 00:27:33,329 stripes were painted on all Allied 621 00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:35,249 aircraft to make them readily 622 00:27:40,369 --> 00:27:37,440 recognizable so they wouldn't be shot 623 00:27:42,649 --> 00:27:40,379 down by Allied forces dummies dressed in 624 00:27:44,869 --> 00:27:42,659 full paratrooper uniforms known as 625 00:27:47,089 --> 00:27:44,879 Rupert's were dropped with real 626 00:27:48,949 --> 00:27:47,099 paratroopers east of the invasion zone 627 00:27:51,979 --> 00:27:48,959 to create the illusion of a large 628 00:27:54,349 --> 00:27:51,989 airborne attack and invading troops were 629 00:27:56,659 --> 00:27:54,359 all issued with condoms but they were 630 00:27:59,509 --> 00:27:56,669 used to keep water out of rifle barrels 631 00:28:01,789 --> 00:27:59,519 that's it for this a week in science for 632 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:01,799 more information on d-day science and 633 00:28:09,379 --> 00:28:05,190 technology go to the Arias website RI au 634 00:28:13,339 --> 00:28:09,389 s dot org a you follow us on Twitter and 635 00:28:14,959 --> 00:28:13,349 are I oz and like us on Facebook I'm 636 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:14,969 Paul Willis and we'll catch you here 637 00:28:23,749 --> 00:28:21,450 next week hi I'm Finn and I'm Rebecca 638 00:28:25,459 --> 00:28:23,759 and where the skipper cons skipper 639 00:28:27,229 --> 00:28:25,469 Collins is an Irish blood cast by the 640 00:28:28,879 --> 00:28:27,239 Dublin skeptics society it takes a 641 00:28:30,649 --> 00:28:28,889 conversational reverent look at science 642 00:28:34,159 --> 00:28:30,659 news and skeptical topics from an Irish 643 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:34,169 perspective you can find us at WWDC 644 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:50,269 and joining me now from Brisbane sunny 645 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:53,070 Brisbane it's the o clock healthier can 646 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:55,049 I Richard hey guy I'm doing really well 647 00:28:59,299 --> 00:28:56,970 and I'm very excited and very pleased to 648 00:29:02,570 --> 00:28:59,309 see that you are releasing another 649 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:02,580 edition of the book humbug which I first 650 00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:05,850 came across some years back humbug the 651 00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:07,679 skeptics field guide to spotting 652 00:29:13,370 --> 00:29:10,919 fallacies and deceptive arguments now 653 00:29:15,019 --> 00:29:13,380 let's go right back to the beginning you 654 00:29:16,909 --> 00:29:15,029 wrote the the first edition with your 655 00:29:18,889 --> 00:29:16,919 dad who some sadly no longer with us 656 00:29:21,649 --> 00:29:18,899 what inspired you to to put this 657 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:21,659 together look so it began really my 658 00:29:27,159 --> 00:29:23,490 father was an academic in teacher 659 00:29:29,539 --> 00:29:27,169 education at UM Griffith University and 660 00:29:31,070 --> 00:29:29,549 we've had obviously had a long title 661 00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:31,080 standing interesting skepticism and 662 00:29:33,950 --> 00:29:32,220 critical thinking and things like that 663 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:33,960 and one of the things he'd noticed in 664 00:29:38,149 --> 00:29:35,730 student essays was they were able to 665 00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:38,159 critique educational articles and things 666 00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:41,700 like that probably intuitively so lots 667 00:29:45,289 --> 00:29:43,710 of times people sense that an argument 668 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:45,299 is flawed or wrong or there's some issue 669 00:29:49,070 --> 00:29:47,130 with it but they can only really go that 670 00:29:50,779 --> 00:29:49,080 superficially and can't identify exactly 671 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:50,789 where in arguments gone wrong or how 672 00:29:55,879 --> 00:29:54,450 it's been misrepresented so we he'd 673 00:29:57,470 --> 00:29:55,889 obviously had an interesting critical 674 00:30:00,529 --> 00:29:57,480 thinking through his studies and his 675 00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:00,539 work and we gradually started to look at 676 00:30:04,879 --> 00:30:02,940 teaching fallacies as a way to approach 677 00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:04,889 critical thinking because when you can 678 00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:08,159 learn how to to identify floored raising 679 00:30:11,389 --> 00:30:09,840 you can then you know pointed out in 680 00:30:13,399 --> 00:30:11,399 other people's reasoning but also then 681 00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:13,409 remove it from your own and therefore 682 00:30:16,730 --> 00:30:15,000 structure a better argument or make your 683 00:30:20,899 --> 00:30:16,740 point better so that's where the genesis 684 00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:20,909 of the book began it's very good because 685 00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:24,240 it happens to us all but I think from a 686 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:27,600 skeptics point of view it skeptics seem 687 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:30,450 to be on the the wrong end of these sort 688 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:33,450 of things that many times sometimes I 689 00:30:37,879 --> 00:30:34,970 must admit from people who don't even 690 00:30:39,620 --> 00:30:37,889 who don't know better and this book 691 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:39,630 would help everybody in that respect but 692 00:30:43,879 --> 00:30:42,450 some of the the argument skeptics will 693 00:30:46,009 --> 00:30:43,889 get again and again and again what a 694 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:46,019 mine favorite of course is the straw man 695 00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:49,500 argument yeah absolutely that's a really 696 00:30:53,180 --> 00:30:50,580 important one I would 697 00:30:56,090 --> 00:30:53,190 argue that's probably the most 698 00:30:58,190 --> 00:30:56,100 fundamental fallacy that's seen with 699 00:30:59,960 --> 00:30:58,200 skeptics in the media anywhere in 700 00:31:02,690 --> 00:30:59,970 general is a straw man and not 701 00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:02,700 necessarily deliberately obviously can 702 00:31:05,870 --> 00:31:04,260 be done deliberately but a straw man is 703 00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:05,880 when you carry you essentially 704 00:31:10,539 --> 00:31:07,440 characterize your opponent's argument 705 00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:10,549 but you simply do a caricature of your 706 00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:13,559 opponent and if you're interested in 707 00:31:18,529 --> 00:31:16,559 seeking the truth as opposed to winning 708 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:18,539 an argument you will actually try to 709 00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:20,090 understand your opponent's argument 710 00:31:24,529 --> 00:31:22,980 perfectly and if you're interested in 711 00:31:27,049 --> 00:31:24,539 winning your characterize your 712 00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:27,059 opponent's argument in a flawed way so 713 00:31:30,919 --> 00:31:28,799 it's easy for you to knock it down so 714 00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:30,929 that's the straw man fallacy and it's 715 00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:32,760 that's the distinction I make is if 716 00:31:36,529 --> 00:31:34,620 you're interested in the truth and your 717 00:31:38,690 --> 00:31:36,539 opponent is wrong you don't need to 718 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:38,700 character to you know make a caricature 719 00:31:42,259 --> 00:31:40,710 of their argument you can just explain 720 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:42,269 their argument perfectly and then 721 00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:45,210 explain why it's wrong yeah yes that's 722 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:47,070 right and one of the the ones that was 723 00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:50,490 put to me once on national television 724 00:31:55,450 --> 00:31:52,620 was are you skeptics thought the world 725 00:31:59,450 --> 00:31:55,460 was flat therefore you're so silly I 726 00:32:01,580 --> 00:31:59,460 remember that we mustn't that joke yeah 727 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:01,590 exactly i mean that's not what skeptics 728 00:32:05,779 --> 00:32:03,510 are you don't think it's about the 729 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:05,789 process of self course you change your 730 00:32:09,259 --> 00:32:08,130 mind so if evidence comes along to force 731 00:32:11,810 --> 00:32:09,269 you to change your mind then that's what 732 00:32:13,490 --> 00:32:11,820 you do and if you're not married to the 733 00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:13,500 outcome but you're married to the 734 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:15,120 process of you know thinking 735 00:32:18,110 --> 00:32:17,010 scientifically thinking critically then 736 00:32:19,580 --> 00:32:18,120 you don't mind when you have to change 737 00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:19,590 your mind it's exciting it's interesting 738 00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:22,980 it's new the issue is when you have a 739 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:24,840 belief and you want to maintain that 740 00:32:28,909 --> 00:32:26,850 belief so then you rationalize that 741 00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:28,919 belief and of course we all do it to 742 00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:30,510 some extent but if you're aware of these 743 00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:32,700 cognitive biases these floors you can do 744 00:32:36,289 --> 00:32:34,620 your best to try and avoid that and I 745 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:36,299 see in the book to you cover some some 746 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:38,700 other old favorites and speaking of old 747 00:32:42,649 --> 00:32:40,110 favorite we have the argument from 748 00:32:44,690 --> 00:32:42,659 antiquity or I guess you could say the 749 00:32:47,060 --> 00:32:44,700 argument from tradition the argument 750 00:32:50,659 --> 00:32:47,070 from celebrity which is if some famous 751 00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:50,669 person says so it sort of tends to add 752 00:32:55,730 --> 00:32:53,519 weight to to an argument for with that 753 00:32:57,919 --> 00:32:55,740 are you argument is valid or not but I 754 00:33:00,289 --> 00:32:57,929 noticed one which tickled me a little 755 00:33:02,180 --> 00:33:00,299 bit I can't remember because I don't 756 00:33:04,750 --> 00:33:02,190 have it handy at the original copy the 757 00:33:07,899 --> 00:33:04,760 WTF fallacy can you tell me about that 758 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:07,909 so that is a new one so it wasn't in the 759 00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:11,850 first edition and so to anyone who only 760 00:33:14,779 --> 00:33:13,020 has a copy of the first session I'll 761 00:33:17,450 --> 00:33:14,789 point out we have a bunch of extra new 762 00:33:19,970 --> 00:33:17,460 fallacies and I personally rewrote every 763 00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:19,980 single sentence of the new second 764 00:33:23,180 --> 00:33:21,809 edition so apologies if you got the 765 00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:23,190 first but you really need to upgrade to 766 00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:26,880 the second edition you know because the 767 00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:28,110 first issue was really basically was 768 00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:30,960 rubbish compared to this new one the WTF 769 00:33:35,930 --> 00:33:33,240 it really you know obviously it's not a 770 00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,940 technically a logical fallacy in terms 771 00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:37,440 of the strictest sense of the word logic 772 00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:40,140 it but it's come about really because of 773 00:33:45,260 --> 00:33:43,200 the age of the Internet and what you 774 00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,270 know I'm sure everyone hears who's 775 00:33:49,580 --> 00:33:47,279 listening to podcast is noticed is your 776 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:49,590 get engaged in these long discussions on 777 00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:50,970 the internet with people that when you 778 00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:53,279 take a step back and think about it you 779 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:55,110 know people like night Mark Adams you 780 00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,490 know from natural news and people like 781 00:34:01,130 --> 00:33:58,559 that you're not going to win with them 782 00:34:03,769 --> 00:34:01,140 they are possibly diagnose ibly 783 00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:03,779 certifiable in terms of you know there 784 00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:07,440 are mental health so the WTF almost is a 785 00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,599 way to say look this person is it's 786 00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:11,520 there's no point in engaging with them 787 00:34:15,770 --> 00:34:13,500 because they really are off the deep end 788 00:34:17,629 --> 00:34:15,780 so it isn't it is kind of an ad hominem 789 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:17,639 but in a way it's almost a break and to 790 00:34:22,369 --> 00:34:19,649 say to yourself let's just stop this 791 00:34:24,349 --> 00:34:22,379 there's no point with it so we you know 792 00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:24,359 in our website skeptics field guide now 793 00:34:28,070 --> 00:34:26,250 we catalog a few of these and we've come 794 00:34:29,869 --> 00:34:28,080 across and that's where it really comes 795 00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:29,879 from in to have a it's almost a more 796 00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:31,679 extreme version of simple-minded 797 00:34:36,409 --> 00:34:33,990 certitude where you know this person is 798 00:34:38,180 --> 00:34:36,419 actually a bit of a loan so maybe should 799 00:34:40,490 --> 00:34:38,190 take step back and what's the pointing 800 00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:40,500 engaging with them it's an interesting 801 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:43,919 angle to take because I I'll have to say 802 00:34:48,139 --> 00:34:45,810 that there are times when I come across 803 00:34:52,220 --> 00:34:48,149 people who engage in argument with me 804 00:34:56,599 --> 00:34:52,230 and the argument the process breaks down 805 00:34:59,570 --> 00:34:56,609 relatively soon because that there to be 806 00:35:03,650 --> 00:34:59,580 blunt incoherent a lot of the time or 807 00:35:04,970 --> 00:35:03,660 their own arguments contradict each 808 00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:04,980 other than they can't see it because 809 00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:06,270 they're sort of living in their own 810 00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:08,940 fantasy world and it's a tricky one 811 00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,280 because you don't want to come off as 812 00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:12,480 appearing really arrogant and saying I 813 00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:13,710 can't talk to this person they're 814 00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:17,640 obviously completely bonkers but I must 815 00:35:19,790 --> 00:35:18,360 admit some 816 00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:19,800 times I think I found that to be the 817 00:35:25,310 --> 00:35:23,880 case yeah and and that again is the 818 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:25,320 point of it I mean you don't want to 819 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:26,970 i've had people email me saying is this 820 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:28,890 a WTF and i've responded and said well 821 00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:31,530 you know you really need to take a step 822 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:33,300 back and make sure you're not just you 823 00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:34,890 know ending a conversation prematurely 824 00:35:38,510 --> 00:35:37,110 and just insulting them it really does 825 00:35:41,090 --> 00:35:38,520 need to be the point where you say as 826 00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:41,100 you said their own issues and points are 827 00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:43,550 so incoherent and self contradictory 828 00:35:47,180 --> 00:35:45,630 that you think well this we would have 829 00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:47,190 to step back to first principles of 830 00:35:50,990 --> 00:35:48,960 logic and reason and they'd have to 831 00:35:52,820 --> 00:35:51,000 accept all those things so you some of 832 00:35:54,980 --> 00:35:52,830 the examples of using the book you know 833 00:35:58,070 --> 00:35:54,990 a real example so when Madonna was 834 00:36:00,560 --> 00:35:58,080 talking about her wanting to you know 835 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:00,570 help the world with nuclear waste but 836 00:36:03,380 --> 00:36:02,010 what's the point with it because you 837 00:36:04,610 --> 00:36:03,390 know she writes all these great songs 838 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:04,620 and there's no world then what's the 839 00:36:10,820 --> 00:36:06,570 point writing all these songs and you 840 00:36:13,070 --> 00:36:10,830 know things like the the Richard Dawkins 841 00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:13,080 fantastic documentary the enemies of 842 00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:15,060 reason and there's a woman talking about 843 00:36:20,930 --> 00:36:18,750 12 stands of DNA DNA in Atlantis etc you 844 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:20,940 just go right it's so incoherent you 845 00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:23,250 know you're taking DNA then Atlantis and 846 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:24,480 all these different things and there's 847 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:26,250 literally no point in engaging with her 848 00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:30,330 yes yes and that that's a can lead to 849 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:31,920 very interesting situations when then 850 00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:33,930 you're accused of not engaging with 851 00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:35,520 people from a different point of view 852 00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:37,080 and what are you scared of skeptic and 853 00:36:42,050 --> 00:36:38,670 why don't you argue with this person and 854 00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:42,060 your head desking away yeah life's too 855 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:43,680 short basically that's what it is and 856 00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:45,450 it's that internet meme of I can't go to 857 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:46,710 bed now because someone's wrong on the 858 00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:49,050 Internet yeah just go well actually it's 859 00:36:52,730 --> 00:36:50,460 not worth investing in that time and 860 00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:52,740 effort and your travels when you're 861 00:36:58,370 --> 00:36:55,260 talking with people what what are what 862 00:37:02,210 --> 00:36:58,380 is the most common fallacy people would 863 00:37:04,820 --> 00:37:02,220 innocently fall into look again I'd have 864 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:04,830 to say a couple that I really do notice 865 00:37:09,470 --> 00:37:07,650 is you know false dichotomy so people 866 00:37:11,690 --> 00:37:09,480 often will say you know if we do this we 867 00:37:13,570 --> 00:37:11,700 can't do that or you know blackened up 868 00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:13,580 kind of black and white thinking yeah 869 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:17,280 certainly the misuse of information so 870 00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:20,130 misusing science in particular is one 871 00:37:23,060 --> 00:37:21,720 that you know personally my background 872 00:37:26,030 --> 00:37:23,070 is as a physics teacher so that one 873 00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:26,040 really just drives me up the wall and I 874 00:37:29,690 --> 00:37:27,900 certainly say moving the goalposts so in 875 00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:29,700 a conversation and a discussion or an 876 00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:31,920 argument people will start 877 00:37:35,359 --> 00:37:33,839 get off topic pretty quickly and shift 878 00:37:36,549 --> 00:37:35,369 the goalposts oh that's there probably 879 00:37:38,450 --> 00:37:36,559 some of the big ones that I see 880 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:38,460 obviously just in terms of people's 881 00:37:42,319 --> 00:37:40,290 cognitive biases so things like 882 00:37:44,089 --> 00:37:42,329 observational selection that kind of 883 00:37:46,130 --> 00:37:44,099 stuff as well some of the ones that I 884 00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:46,140 commonly see even with some of my 885 00:37:51,620 --> 00:37:47,910 colleagues but I won't that will be 886 00:37:53,359 --> 00:37:51,630 remain nameless I i do see those ones i 887 00:37:56,299 --> 00:37:53,369 also see the argument from Authority 888 00:37:59,359 --> 00:37:56,309 used quite a lot so and so said this 889 00:38:02,089 --> 00:37:59,369 therefore you know you can a lot of wage 890 00:38:03,710 --> 00:38:02,099 because so-and-so said this yeah you 891 00:38:05,059 --> 00:38:03,720 know I mean in terms of and obviously 892 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:05,069 appeal to celebrities one of the ones 893 00:38:08,450 --> 00:38:06,690 that really has come on to the in the 894 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:08,460 four in the last time decade or so 895 00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:10,410 obviously people like Jenny McCarthy and 896 00:38:14,780 --> 00:38:12,510 um those kind of people have done a lot 897 00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:14,790 of damage to so that's a real worry the 898 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:17,280 other 1i it's a kind of a new one and I 899 00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:19,410 hadn't seen really out there was what I 900 00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:20,760 like to phrase as an argument from 901 00:38:26,539 --> 00:38:23,520 imagination I saw the book yeah that's 902 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:26,549 it you janu on you again because there 903 00:38:29,630 --> 00:38:27,690 hadn't really been anything out there 904 00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:29,640 were people they come up with an idea 905 00:38:34,099 --> 00:38:31,950 about the way the world works and then 906 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:34,109 they propose a hypothesis and then they 907 00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,210 just assume that that hypothesis is true 908 00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:38,400 and they don't actually go and find any 909 00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:40,079 evidence for it you know the hypothesis 910 00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:42,089 might make sense but essentially really 911 00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:43,920 it's just saying in my imagination I 912 00:38:47,930 --> 00:38:45,750 think this is how the world works and I 913 00:38:49,609 --> 00:38:47,940 looked around to try and find a fallacy 914 00:38:52,430 --> 00:38:49,619 that related to that anything i could 915 00:38:54,170 --> 00:38:52,440 say fun was the opposite you know the 916 00:38:55,339 --> 00:38:54,180 argument from personal incredulity when 917 00:38:57,140 --> 00:38:55,349 they said well i can't imagine how that 918 00:38:58,910 --> 00:38:57,150 could work so it's really the opposite 919 00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:58,920 version where if i can imagine how it 920 00:39:03,289 --> 00:39:00,720 works then that is the way it works and 921 00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:03,299 again if you take a step back and think 922 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:04,440 of it it's almost like begging the 923 00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:06,450 question the question has a very 924 00:39:09,950 --> 00:39:08,400 particular form so that was another one 925 00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:09,960 that i thought it is a useful way of 926 00:39:14,270 --> 00:39:12,270 categorizing some of the types of you 927 00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:14,280 know weak arguments people make I think 928 00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:15,960 begging the question two is a really 929 00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:17,910 important one that people should bear in 930 00:39:23,630 --> 00:39:22,079 mind because again from from a skeptical 931 00:39:27,530 --> 00:39:23,640 point of view being a skeptic out there 932 00:39:30,349 --> 00:39:27,540 and hearing people's points of view so 933 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:30,359 often so often in my experience people 934 00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:32,970 will beg the question when they say to 935 00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:36,240 me something like well mr. skeptic I 936 00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:37,260 always know where they're coming from 937 00:39:41,450 --> 00:39:39,420 when they say mr. skeptic they say mr. 938 00:39:43,490 --> 00:39:41,460 skeptic what about that what about all 939 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:43,500 the people who have seen ghosts or what 940 00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:45,570 about the time what do you say to 941 00:39:49,820 --> 00:39:47,250 little girl who sees a ghost every night 942 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:49,830 it's um it happens so frequently this 943 00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:51,210 begging the question and I think it's a 944 00:39:54,590 --> 00:39:52,800 really important one people should 945 00:39:57,050 --> 00:39:54,600 understand at least they're being polite 946 00:39:59,090 --> 00:39:57,060 by calling you mr. Skippy oh I can give 947 00:40:00,740 --> 00:39:59,100 them that yeah and again I mean that 948 00:40:02,450 --> 00:40:00,750 that's a really good classic example of 949 00:40:04,610 --> 00:40:02,460 that burden of proof fallacy as well 950 00:40:06,770 --> 00:40:04,620 where they say well if you can't prove 951 00:40:08,270 --> 00:40:06,780 that it's not goes yeah that's because 952 00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:08,280 then you're so we'll hang on a second 953 00:40:11,870 --> 00:40:10,200 but where does a burden like the burden 954 00:40:14,540 --> 00:40:11,880 actually lies in the person make making 955 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:14,550 the claim so if their claim is 956 00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:16,410 essentially eyewitness testimony and 957 00:40:19,610 --> 00:40:17,910 they really just haven't done the 958 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:19,620 research or the reading about well how 959 00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,930 valid is eyewitness testimony in terms 960 00:40:26,180 --> 00:40:23,520 of hallucinations and things like that 961 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:26,190 so all those phenomena can be explained 962 00:40:30,380 --> 00:40:29,010 by our understanding in modern 963 00:40:31,610 --> 00:40:30,390 psychology in the research now we've 964 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:31,620 read people that Richard Wiseman and 965 00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:33,210 those guys and you get a pretty clear 966 00:40:38,060 --> 00:40:35,430 picture of an alternative hypothesis 967 00:40:39,830 --> 00:40:38,070 that probably has more weight that's 968 00:40:41,570 --> 00:40:39,840 another thing we added to the settler to 969 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:41,580 the second edition of the book is some 970 00:40:45,860 --> 00:40:44,010 of those you know tools are skeptical 971 00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:45,870 thinking some of those ones a Carl Sagan 972 00:40:51,290 --> 00:40:47,040 talk about such as spinning and other 973 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:51,300 hypotheses and that that claim you get 974 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:52,770 made by those people you know how can 975 00:40:56,510 --> 00:40:55,050 you explain this well of course I can't 976 00:40:59,210 --> 00:40:56,520 explain it I wasn't there I didn't see 977 00:41:00,440 --> 00:40:59,220 it no yeah so and then it's almost put 978 00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:00,450 forward it's like a horrible therefore i 979 00:41:04,910 --> 00:41:03,240 win life's little inclination I brings 980 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:04,920 all the laws of physics so your 981 00:41:09,050 --> 00:41:06,930 explanation a little bit more 982 00:41:11,740 --> 00:41:09,060 challenging to actually with uphold it 983 00:41:14,420 --> 00:41:11,750 happens again again people are there's a 984 00:41:18,260 --> 00:41:14,430 guy at the moment with these UFO videos 985 00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:18,270 online dealing with the skeptics and his 986 00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:21,030 basic premises will you can't tell what 987 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:23,760 it is therefore i win yeah i mean answer 988 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:25,410 that is though that's the classic burden 989 00:41:29,450 --> 00:41:27,810 of proof and you know if if we have 990 00:41:31,220 --> 00:41:29,460 ruled out every other possibility and 991 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:31,230 that's the only ones left over fair 992 00:41:34,910 --> 00:41:32,730 enough but i don't think we've ruled out 993 00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:34,920 every other possibility yeah that's 994 00:41:40,190 --> 00:41:38,160 right so Theo how can people get their 995 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:40,200 hands on a copy of this book which is an 996 00:41:44,780 --> 00:41:41,850 e-book by the way so people can 997 00:41:47,390 --> 00:41:44,790 certainly easily read it on their their 998 00:41:49,550 --> 00:41:47,400 tablets and so on what's the best place 999 00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:49,560 people can go to the best place is just 1000 00:41:54,260 --> 00:41:52,740 to go to the website WWE app text field 1001 00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:54,270 guide net and there's a link that says 1002 00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,310 ebook and yet the choice of platforms at 1003 00:42:02,120 --> 00:41:59,040 the moment on kindle google play ball 1004 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:02,130 and also loo loo the loo loo version is 1005 00:42:07,220 --> 00:42:05,610 a drm-free epub so if you prefer to have 1006 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:07,230 a drm-free so you know digital rights 1007 00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:10,410 management free version it's there the 1008 00:42:15,290 --> 00:42:12,630 original first edition is freely 1009 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:15,300 available as a scan because I you know 1010 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:16,410 send it into google books and they 1011 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:17,490 scanned it I've made the entire thing 1012 00:42:20,660 --> 00:42:19,290 free so you just want to cop free copy 1013 00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:20,670 the first edition you can grab that but 1014 00:42:24,590 --> 00:42:22,470 as I said I have rewritten every single 1015 00:42:28,220 --> 00:42:24,600 sentence painstakingly so I'd get the 1016 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:28,230 ebook it's only 399 I am investigating 1017 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:30,210 doing some print on demand to make a 1018 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:31,410 paperback version because already had a 1019 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:32,850 couple of people saved they'd like a 1020 00:42:36,260 --> 00:42:34,770 paperback version so I'll certainly let 1021 00:42:37,970 --> 00:42:36,270 you know when that happens we've also 1022 00:42:39,740 --> 00:42:37,980 relaunch the podcast so that's the other 1023 00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:39,750 thing that's happened to us with my 1024 00:42:47,060 --> 00:42:43,110 father yeah I'm Jeff and I'm relaunching 1025 00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:47,070 it probably every fortnight the purpose 1026 00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:48,480 of it is to go through every single 1027 00:42:52,580 --> 00:42:50,910 fallacy in the book included in that 1028 00:42:53,870 --> 00:42:52,590 will be some of the original episodes I 1029 00:42:55,370 --> 00:42:53,880 mean to splicing them in there with my 1030 00:42:58,130 --> 00:42:55,380 dad Jeff because I think it's a good 1031 00:42:59,810 --> 00:42:58,140 tribute to him sure and also the 1032 00:43:02,450 --> 00:42:59,820 original is archive but you can't access 1033 00:43:04,430 --> 00:43:02,460 it via podcast app so that's another 1034 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:04,440 thing I'm doing as well excellent well 1035 00:43:09,830 --> 00:43:06,930 there you go folks the book is humbug 1036 00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:09,840 the skeptics field guide to spotting 1037 00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:12,300 fallacies and deceptive arguments it 1038 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:14,400 certainly it's like the handbook I think 1039 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:15,930 every skeptic should have on their 1040 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:18,810 device or about them it's good to read 1041 00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:21,450 at at least once a year to refresh 1042 00:43:26,180 --> 00:43:23,790 yourself on all these interesting ways 1043 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:26,190 that people can use bad arguments and 1044 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:27,930 being a skeptic you're going to come 1045 00:43:32,570 --> 00:43:30,330 across bad arguments all the time Theo 1046 00:43:34,570 --> 00:43:32,580 really nice to catch up with you and all 1047 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:34,580 the best with the book and the podcast 1048 00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:36,930 excellent thanks Richard and thanks surf 1049 00:43:46,660 --> 00:43:38,310 the opportunity to have a chatty of our 1050 00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:48,920 are you enjoying the skeptics own 1051 00:43:53,299 --> 00:43:50,760 podcast and wondering where you can find 1052 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:53,309 more skeptical information skeptics on 1053 00:43:57,049 --> 00:43:55,170 the net is an online directory for 1054 00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:57,059 everything skeptical it features 1055 00:44:02,089 --> 00:43:59,130 listings for skeptical podcasts blogs 1056 00:44:04,339 --> 00:44:02,099 people local groups and more it also 1057 00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:04,349 includes the sotn blog where people in 1058 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:05,940 the know right introductions to their 1059 00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:07,650 favorite skeptical and pseudo scientific 1060 00:44:23,930 --> 00:44:21,140 and now join me as I go to Sydney 1061 00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:23,940 skeptics in the pub always on the first 1062 00:44:30,140 --> 00:44:26,609 thursday of each month at the crown 1063 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:30,150 hotel in the city you can find out more 1064 00:44:46,329 --> 00:44:44,499 well the talks all over folks we had a 1065 00:44:48,069 --> 00:44:46,339 great talk tonight about morality and 1066 00:44:51,039 --> 00:44:48,079 God good heavens what an interesting 1067 00:44:52,959 --> 00:44:51,049 talk and I'm was delighted delighted to 1068 00:44:54,609 --> 00:44:52,969 see lots of new faces here at skeptics 1069 00:44:57,999 --> 00:44:54,619 in the pub tonight hello into your face 1070 00:45:00,190 --> 00:44:58,009 hi I'm eiza aiza um thank you for coming 1071 00:45:01,809 --> 00:45:00,200 along to Sydney skeptics in the pub it's 1072 00:45:03,609 --> 00:45:01,819 great this is the first time I've ever 1073 00:45:07,390 --> 00:45:03,619 been here and I have to say that the 1074 00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:07,400 speaker was amazing I think very deep 1075 00:45:15,309 --> 00:45:10,910 partner philosophy philosophy you know 1076 00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:15,319 all that nerdy stuff but it was greatest 1077 00:45:19,630 --> 00:45:17,569 I think I'm very stimulating and it 1078 00:45:21,849 --> 00:45:19,640 gives you some something really meaty to 1079 00:45:24,819 --> 00:45:21,859 chew on and think about that's one way 1080 00:45:25,989 --> 00:45:24,829 to say i must admit i will always keen 1081 00:45:28,539 --> 00:45:25,999 to know how did you find out about 1082 00:45:31,150 --> 00:45:28,549 Sydney skeptics in the pub actually on 1083 00:45:33,279 --> 00:45:31,160 the meetup group yes and I've been on 1084 00:45:35,799 --> 00:45:33,289 the meetup group for almost a year but 1085 00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:35,809 I've never come before because most of 1086 00:45:41,849 --> 00:45:38,089 my master's classes on thursday nights 1087 00:45:43,930 --> 00:45:41,859 at the masters classes oh what's that in 1088 00:45:46,269 --> 00:45:43,940 communications management whatever that 1089 00:45:47,979 --> 00:45:46,279 means ok whatever that means now you've 1090 00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:47,989 got a very lovely accent there where are 1091 00:45:51,819 --> 00:45:50,390 you from I'm from Malaysia Malaysia oh 1092 00:45:55,209 --> 00:45:51,829 and you're living in Australia just 1093 00:45:59,229 --> 00:45:55,219 studying I'm just both I guess well you 1094 00:46:00,700 --> 00:45:59,239 know it's not either/or well let me put 1095 00:46:02,349 --> 00:46:00,710 another way have you moved here or you 1096 00:46:06,099 --> 00:46:02,359 just keep sake style I want to move here 1097 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:06,109 permanently yes I'm working on it of 1098 00:46:10,779 --> 00:46:07,729 course you do it's a wonderful place too 1099 00:46:12,849 --> 00:46:10,789 yes it is much better than at least in 1100 00:46:15,309 --> 00:46:12,859 terms of civil liberties much better 1101 00:46:16,749 --> 00:46:15,319 than Malaysia well then I can't comment 1102 00:46:18,819 --> 00:46:16,759 on because I've never been to Malaysia I 1103 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:18,829 went to Singapore briefly but I've never 1104 00:46:23,170 --> 00:46:20,690 been to Malaysia I guess it's a nice 1105 00:46:28,059 --> 00:46:23,180 place to visit though it's a great place 1106 00:46:32,190 --> 00:46:28,069 to visit especially if you're the right 1107 00:46:34,839 --> 00:46:32,200 race oh yeah yeah yeah so um I think 1108 00:46:36,489 --> 00:46:34,849 that many good things about it but they 1109 00:46:37,959 --> 00:46:36,499 also as I say in terms of civil 1110 00:46:40,509 --> 00:46:37,969 liberties there's some things that are 1111 00:46:41,950 --> 00:46:40,519 lacking in our society I'm sure our 1112 00:46:43,380 --> 00:46:41,960 Malaysian listeners will be very 1113 00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:43,390 interested to get that 1114 00:46:48,839 --> 00:46:47,230 we have a another you I think have you 1115 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:48,849 been here before all this is your first 1116 00:46:52,170 --> 00:46:50,410 time you left rest are this is my first 1117 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:52,180 time here and how did you discover us 1118 00:46:56,210 --> 00:46:54,250 well I'm a longtime listener I listened 1119 00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:56,220 to your very first skeptics own podcast 1120 00:47:02,730 --> 00:46:58,480 so you're the man who listened to my 1121 00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:02,740 first that's me and yeah I believed 1122 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:04,660 lived in coffs harbour still do but i 1123 00:47:08,279 --> 00:47:06,970 recently got working in sydney right and 1124 00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:08,289 i'll be here for about 12 months or so 1125 00:47:11,730 --> 00:47:09,609 and this is the first opportunity I've 1126 00:47:14,339 --> 00:47:11,740 had to come to one of the meetings all 1127 00:47:16,890 --> 00:47:14,349 it's like coming home please you're here 1128 00:47:18,750 --> 00:47:16,900 coffs harbour I used to live on the far 1129 00:47:20,370 --> 00:47:18,760 north coast of new cell phones myself 1130 00:47:22,859 --> 00:47:20,380 when I was growing up so I know coffs 1131 00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:22,869 harbour it's a it's a lovely place it's 1132 00:47:28,529 --> 00:47:24,640 big banana right the big banana that's 1133 00:47:30,660 --> 00:47:28,539 right it every April first as an article 1134 00:47:34,650 --> 00:47:30,670 in the paper with it banana was taken 1135 00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,660 away for the weekend bit skeptical but 1136 00:47:40,319 --> 00:47:36,960 yeah great place to be of great climate 1137 00:47:41,579 --> 00:47:40,329 great climb please I'm Alicia come along 1138 00:47:43,529 --> 00:47:41,589 tonight and I hope you had a good night 1139 00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:43,539 I dare wonderful night the great speak 1140 00:47:49,650 --> 00:47:46,569 great speech here fantastic I think so 1141 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:49,660 too i'm not sure what's on next month I 1142 00:47:53,370 --> 00:47:51,730 won't be here myself i'll be in the in 1143 00:47:55,140 --> 00:47:53,380 the united states on my way to the 1144 00:47:58,289 --> 00:47:55,150 amazing meeting but i've already 1145 00:47:59,910 --> 00:47:58,299 promised the organizer jessica over 1146 00:48:01,829 --> 00:47:59,920 there that i'll be speaking on the one 1147 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:01,839 after that okay that's great i'll be 1148 00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:03,130 here for the next one end they went 1149 00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:04,660 after not sure what I'm going to say but 1150 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:06,609 I'm sure I'll find out I'll find 1151 00:48:14,490 --> 00:48:09,250 something to talk about well thank you 1152 00:48:15,870 --> 00:48:14,500 both for coming along thank you goodness 1153 00:48:18,029 --> 00:48:15,880 me it's an agretti from the Blue 1154 00:48:20,249 --> 00:48:18,039 Mountains hello hello Richard Saunders 1155 00:48:22,049 --> 00:48:20,259 how are you but you know you travel now 1156 00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:22,059 I'm from the Blue Mountains every month 1157 00:48:27,089 --> 00:48:24,609 for this yes yes I'm very committed in 1158 00:48:28,890 --> 00:48:27,099 the train yes the train is great it's 1159 00:48:30,690 --> 00:48:28,900 not bad is it no it's very comfortable 1160 00:48:33,569 --> 00:48:30,700 and what do you like about Sydney's 1161 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:33,579 skeptics in the pub oh okay I'm well I 1162 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:35,730 like the variety of speakers and the 1163 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:38,170 like-minded people 1164 00:48:43,020 --> 00:48:39,370 getting to know wonderful people like 1165 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:43,030 you Richard haha come on the show 1166 00:48:48,780 --> 00:48:46,210 anytime and it's a great pity that our 1167 00:48:50,460 --> 00:48:48,790 dear friend agile the best is not well 1168 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:50,470 at the moment no I think she's got a bit 1169 00:48:54,660 --> 00:48:53,050 of a cold oh dear yeah but she also 1170 00:48:57,300 --> 00:48:54,670 normally makes the journey down from the 1171 00:48:59,040 --> 00:48:57,310 lounge in fact she's probably big reason 1172 00:49:00,960 --> 00:48:59,050 why I go down having been accompanied on 1173 00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:00,970 the train and you know making a bit of a 1174 00:49:05,310 --> 00:49:03,550 friend adding it's it's great yeah yeah 1175 00:49:06,780 --> 00:49:05,320 well um I the other thing I really like 1176 00:49:09,570 --> 00:49:06,790 about it is the fact that you you're not 1177 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:09,580 some economically bound you know there's 1178 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:11,530 no there's no entry price yeah you don't 1179 00:49:15,630 --> 00:49:13,450 have to eat or drink you don't hear you 1180 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:15,640 don't want to no no no so it really 1181 00:49:20,670 --> 00:49:17,890 accessible open to everybody lithium 1182 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:20,680 secret oh if you go downstairs and put a 1183 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:22,570 dollar in the poker machines you can 1184 00:49:30,540 --> 00:49:26,650 nibble their cheese and biscuits is it 1185 00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:30,550 worth a dollar how do you get a bit of 1186 00:49:34,230 --> 00:49:32,800 entertainment sadness and the sadness 1187 00:49:36,270 --> 00:49:34,240 and a couple of cheese and biscuits 1188 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:36,280 sadness as we're looking at the people 1189 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:37,570 who've been there since six and the more 1190 00:49:40,890 --> 00:49:39,610 now moving up tell me more about your 1191 00:49:44,610 --> 00:49:40,900 group up in the Blue Mountains how's 1192 00:49:47,070 --> 00:49:44,620 that going fantastic we've had 34 really 1193 00:49:50,310 --> 00:49:47,080 great talks so far on on political 1194 00:49:53,130 --> 00:49:50,320 philosophy and one you know in a second 1195 00:49:55,530 --> 00:49:53,140 group of three talks on reason and 1196 00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:55,540 emotion and there's another one coming 1197 00:50:01,980 --> 00:49:57,760 up on the fourteenth oh no the 20-foot 1198 00:50:05,010 --> 00:50:01,990 know sometime what's the website it is a 1199 00:50:07,410 --> 00:50:05,020 blackheath philosophy org dot au and 1200 00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:07,420 we're also on Facebook people in the 1201 00:50:11,370 --> 00:50:09,190 blue mountains area might do well to 1202 00:50:13,140 --> 00:50:11,380 check it out oh absolutely where cross 1203 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:13,150 the road from the train station it's ten 1204 00:50:18,570 --> 00:50:15,570 bucks including a nice afternoon tea and 1205 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:18,580 it's always a great speaker and a really 1206 00:50:22,650 --> 00:50:20,050 interesting afternoon and there's always 1207 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:22,660 plenty of time for Question and Answer 1208 00:50:25,890 --> 00:50:24,370 so everyone can get involved I must 1209 00:50:27,630 --> 00:50:25,900 admit I do have a soft spot for the Blue 1210 00:50:30,690 --> 00:50:27,640 Mountains I lived there for time when I 1211 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:30,700 was a very young boy in lithgow oh I'm 1212 00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:33,250 not sure we call that the mountain what 1213 00:50:37,290 --> 00:50:35,200 do you go what is it well because let 1214 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:37,300 guys actually when your descent is after 1215 00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:38,650 you can you make that descent down that 1216 00:50:42,530 --> 00:50:40,480 Victoria pass then you're in leaf goes 1217 00:50:45,630 --> 00:50:42,540 guess you're right in the mountain 1218 00:50:49,590 --> 00:50:45,640 what's that area called in oh good one 1219 00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:49,600 down the other side western New South 1220 00:50:54,450 --> 00:50:52,480 Wales aw really yeah yeah yeah it is 1221 00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:54,460 that purpose it's still snows there you 1222 00:51:01,290 --> 00:50:57,850 know yes it's nice orange too but you 1223 00:51:03,390 --> 00:51:01,300 know it's true and it's knows where you 1224 00:51:04,890 --> 00:51:03,400 live oh very occasionally we actually 1225 00:51:06,690 --> 00:51:04,900 you actually get a lot bit of snow out 1226 00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:06,700 on the Oberon photo then you do on the 1227 00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:09,190 on the mountains where we're very lucky 1228 00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:11,710 if we ever get snow or unlucky depending 1229 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:15,040 no no no lucky lucky lucky lucky yeah I 1230 00:51:19,410 --> 00:51:17,050 be I like a little bit of snow every now 1231 00:51:20,730 --> 00:51:19,420 and then so much faster I'm you know if 1232 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:20,740 it snowed for six months of the year 1233 00:51:25,290 --> 00:51:22,810 we'd probably hate it but it's such a 1234 00:51:27,210 --> 00:51:25,300 novelty and it's just beautiful and it 1235 00:51:28,860 --> 00:51:27,220 changes the landscape completely takes 1236 00:51:32,190 --> 00:51:28,870 all the color out of it it's just it's 1237 00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:32,200 anime know was like sort of very young 1238 00:51:35,310 --> 00:51:34,030 other time I'm saying well thanks Dan 1239 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:35,320 are always great to see you here at 1240 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:36,610 Sydney's skippers in the park it's great 1241 00:51:43,460 --> 00:51:38,890 to see you yeah I always great to see 1242 00:51:47,850 --> 00:51:46,080 are the evenings winding down but that's 1243 00:51:50,420 --> 00:51:47,860 fine I mean a lot of people still here 1244 00:51:52,980 --> 00:51:50,430 socializing and drinking and 1245 00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:52,990 conversation and eating Jessica singer 1246 00:51:58,440 --> 00:51:56,800 hello hi yeah UHN I mean I I kicked this 1247 00:52:00,720 --> 00:51:58,450 off many years ago but you you're the 1248 00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:00,730 woman now who really organizes it aren't 1249 00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:05,440 you I am I I haven't I have step over 1250 00:52:10,039 --> 00:52:06,900 here 1251 00:52:12,589 --> 00:52:10,049 yes i have i have inherited it from you 1252 00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:12,599 in terms of organization and i owe your 1253 00:52:19,130 --> 00:52:16,559 huge debt because you you really you 1254 00:52:21,890 --> 00:52:19,140 really you know set the standard you 1255 00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:21,900 will you did the groundwork you using 1256 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:24,720 year after year yeah month after month 1257 00:52:29,269 --> 00:52:26,970 you came along from small small small 1258 00:52:32,299 --> 00:52:29,279 larger larger budget and now it's just 1259 00:52:35,839 --> 00:52:32,309 it's just it was a packed house tonight 1260 00:52:38,450 --> 00:52:35,849 i'm ray pleased about that and now it's 1261 00:52:40,609 --> 00:52:38,460 your job well apart everybody's job and 1262 00:52:43,609 --> 00:52:40,619 yours especially to find speakers every 1263 00:52:45,079 --> 00:52:43,619 month and i guess this is a bit of a 1264 00:52:46,789 --> 00:52:45,089 shout out for people in the sydney area 1265 00:52:50,510 --> 00:52:46,799 if you have something interesting of the 1266 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:50,520 scientific bent to talk about yep not 1267 00:52:55,299 --> 00:52:52,890 necessarily skeptically related not 1268 00:53:00,319 --> 00:52:55,309 necessarily skeptical scientific 1269 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:00,329 skeptical just interesting not whoo we 1270 00:53:08,599 --> 00:53:04,650 don't like whoo not really but but yeah 1271 00:53:12,769 --> 00:53:08,609 we're open to we're open to all speakers 1272 00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:12,779 you know all topics all areas it's is 1273 00:53:17,930 --> 00:53:16,079 some we're just interested in in people 1274 00:53:20,329 --> 00:53:17,940 who have something interesting to say i 1275 00:53:23,029 --> 00:53:20,339 have to say the people who i approach 1276 00:53:25,970 --> 00:53:23,039 they're so generous with their time yes 1277 00:53:27,620 --> 00:53:25,980 yeah and they're so generous in agreeing 1278 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:27,630 to come and speak with us it's it's 1279 00:53:33,650 --> 00:53:30,690 fantastic it is and look I mean yeah the 1280 00:53:35,450 --> 00:53:33,660 speech speech is over some people have 1281 00:53:37,339 --> 00:53:35,460 left but look at all the people just at 1282 00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:37,349 tables I got a beer in their hand 1283 00:53:41,839 --> 00:53:39,510 they're all engaged in conversation it's 1284 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:41,849 exactly what I wanted to do when this 1285 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:43,650 was kicked off exactly it's also a 1286 00:53:49,170 --> 00:53:46,410 social occasion yes oh yes oh the talk 1287 00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:49,180 is is is one part of it 1288 00:53:55,470 --> 00:53:52,569 and in fact my understanding is that you 1289 00:53:57,059 --> 00:53:55,480 introduced the talk because as the as 1290 00:54:00,299 --> 00:53:57,069 the group was getting bigger and bigger 1291 00:54:04,380 --> 00:54:00,309 and bigger it was it was difficult for 1292 00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:04,390 newcomers to meet people and often 1293 00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:07,510 difficult for shy people to chill mix 1294 00:54:12,660 --> 00:54:10,960 yeah and so we introduced the talk not 1295 00:54:15,690 --> 00:54:12,670 really as a focal point but just as a 1296 00:54:18,359 --> 00:54:15,700 starting point to get people mixing get 1297 00:54:21,660 --> 00:54:18,369 people talking and it's actually quite 1298 00:54:24,210 --> 00:54:21,670 interesting to see you know the energy 1299 00:54:27,450 --> 00:54:24,220 in the room before the talk I energy in 1300 00:54:29,730 --> 00:54:27,460 the room isn't that it's not a I know 1301 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:29,740 what you mean I think you listeners know 1302 00:54:35,370 --> 00:54:31,210 where your mind we're talking about the 1303 00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:35,380 vibe / the vibe in the room before the 1304 00:54:39,420 --> 00:54:37,569 talk when you know perhaps there are 1305 00:54:41,790 --> 00:54:39,430 some you come and say feel a bit shy and 1306 00:54:44,569 --> 00:54:41,800 then after the top people really loosen 1307 00:54:47,430 --> 00:54:44,579 up it's really nice because we've got a 1308 00:54:49,710 --> 00:54:47,440 nice couple of newcomers over there who 1309 00:54:51,660 --> 00:54:49,720 I spoke to before happily engaged in 1310 00:54:53,309 --> 00:54:51,670 conversation it's a really nice social 1311 00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:53,319 opportunity yeah and I suppose also 1312 00:55:00,780 --> 00:54:55,089 after the talk people have had a few 1313 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:00,790 drinks too oh really allowing for the 1314 00:55:04,620 --> 00:55:02,770 effects of alcohol and people who's 1315 00:55:06,089 --> 00:55:04,630 sending up yet so the message used if 1316 00:55:08,099 --> 00:55:06,099 you're in the sydney area and you're a 1317 00:55:11,460 --> 00:55:08,109 scientist and engaged some interesting 1318 00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:11,470 research hey contact us you can contact 1319 00:55:16,770 --> 00:55:14,400 us at the skeptics or the skeptic zone 1320 00:55:18,329 --> 00:55:16,780 you never know you might end up getting 1321 00:55:20,250 --> 00:55:18,339 our featured speaker for the month we'd 1322 00:55:22,020 --> 00:55:20,260 love to we'd love to have you and it's a 1323 00:55:25,319 --> 00:55:22,030 great crowd it's a really friendly crowd 1324 00:55:28,349 --> 00:55:25,329 there scientifically literate yes yep 1325 00:55:30,359 --> 00:55:28,359 really nice people and you'll have a 1326 00:55:34,799 --> 00:55:30,369 great night and you get a free dinner I 1327 00:55:36,809 --> 00:55:34,809 am freedom number and drinks as the 1328 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:36,819 crowd dwindles if we can wrap it up from 1329 00:55:40,980 --> 00:55:39,010 Sydney skeptics in the pub I do get 1330 00:55:43,819 --> 00:55:40,990 emails occasionally from sort of well 1331 00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:43,829 corners of the world asking me about 1332 00:55:48,030 --> 00:55:45,910 setting up the skeptics in the pub 1333 00:55:50,579 --> 00:55:48,040 there's not much to say really just find 1334 00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:50,589 a nice cover and I spend you one that 1335 00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:52,000 preferably has do you know if people 1336 00:55:58,109 --> 00:55:55,359 want dinner or not meetups a good way to 1337 00:56:00,120 --> 00:55:58,119 start this process see if you can get 1338 00:56:01,859 --> 00:56:00,130 like minded people to come along well 1339 00:56:20,549 --> 00:56:01,869 all I can say in Sydney it's been very 1340 00:56:22,260 --> 00:56:20,559 successful rust 3 30 minute video fear 1341 00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:22,270 of the Islamic love justice skeptical 1342 00:56:26,490 --> 00:56:24,640 museum was not just a jutro prohodit 1343 00:56:28,020 --> 00:56:26,500 guarded we need ye lumis clear it up 1344 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:28,030 with Russian position our podcast 1345 00:56:31,740 --> 00:56:29,770 Petrova hooded cardigan Janie what 1346 00:56:34,140 --> 00:56:31,750 Gospels whites escaped aside a cutter 1347 00:56:38,299 --> 00:56:34,150 bomber still not initiated st at the 1348 00:56:40,559 --> 00:56:38,309 wave over skeptics society Josh guru 1349 00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:40,569 everybody my name is carol and i'm the 1350 00:56:43,980 --> 00:56:42,640 founder of skeptics society russia come 1351 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:43,990 visit us in moscow and our bi-weekly 1352 00:56:48,299 --> 00:56:46,210 meetings and also listen to our weekly 1353 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:48,309 podcast which is called skeptic and the 1354 00:57:09,350 --> 00:56:49,930 site where you can find all that the 1355 00:57:14,220 --> 00:57:11,670 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1356 00:57:17,430 --> 00:57:14,230 zone in my everlasting thanks to those 1357 00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:17,440 people amongst you who are subscribed to 1358 00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:20,290 the skeptic zone by paypal at skeptic 1359 00:57:26,690 --> 00:57:23,890 zone TV less than a dollar a week micro 1360 00:57:29,370 --> 00:57:26,700 payments means the show keeps going and 1361 00:57:31,140 --> 00:57:29,380 you can enjoy the show of course whether 1362 00:57:33,330 --> 00:57:31,150 you subscribe or not but I like to think 1363 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:33,340 those people who do subscribe and 1364 00:57:38,430 --> 00:57:35,650 occasionally very generously send a 1365 00:57:40,590 --> 00:57:38,440 little donation this way I hope those 1366 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:40,600 people enjoy the show just that little 1367 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:43,090 bit more in the coming week I'm going to 1368 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:45,250 be very busy trying to finish off my 1369 00:57:50,460 --> 00:57:48,850 vaccination chronicles documentary of 1370 00:57:53,010 --> 00:57:50,470 Hollister string of bad luck I've had 1371 00:57:56,190 --> 00:57:53,020 six attempts now to film a certain 1372 00:57:58,320 --> 00:57:56,200 segment of the of the documentary each 1373 00:58:00,090 --> 00:57:58,330 time just hasn't worked out due to 1374 00:58:02,580 --> 00:58:00,100 lighting reasons or sound reasons or 1375 00:58:04,590 --> 00:58:02,590 camera reasons or whatever this week 1376 00:58:06,930 --> 00:58:04,600 however I'm pretty confident I'm going 1377 00:58:10,110 --> 00:58:06,940 to wrap that part of the filming up 1378 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:10,120 maybe I'll get to show those people 1379 00:58:15,870 --> 00:58:12,130 going to the amazing meeting in Las 1380 00:58:18,060 --> 00:58:15,880 Vegas early next month a preview yeah 1381 00:58:20,850 --> 00:58:18,070 yeah why not if you're coming to the 1382 00:58:23,370 --> 00:58:20,860 amazing meeting and you see me come over 1383 00:58:25,140 --> 00:58:23,380 and say hello I'd love to meet you I'm 1384 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:25,150 gonna be very busy at the amazing 1385 00:58:29,550 --> 00:58:26,650 meeting I think running around with dr. 1386 00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:29,560 Karl cruising iski and having a chat to 1387 00:58:33,870 --> 00:58:31,330 James Randi and all the good stuff all 1388 00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:33,880 the good fun stuff that goes on at tam 1389 00:58:38,010 --> 00:58:35,830 but for this week this is Richard 1390 00:58:44,310 --> 00:58:38,020 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1391 00:58:46,030 --> 00:58:44,320 Australia you've been listening to the 1392 00:58:50,860 --> 00:58:46,040 skeptic zone 1393 00:58:53,890 --> 00:58:50,870 visit our website at www skeptics on TV